The Death of Paper MCSEs

This MCSE thinks he'd have a difficult time trying to pass the new performance-based questions being added to many MCSE exams.

In June 2001 I went to a boot camp and earned my Windows 2000 Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer (MCSE) certification. If I were to try and do the same thing later this year, I'd fail miserably.

That's a good thing.

I'd fail because Microsoft has finally—let the trumpets sound—added performance-based or "simulation" questions to its MCSE and Microsoft Certified Systems Administrator (MCSA) exams. The simulations will ask test-takers to perform actual configurations they'd have to do in the real world. For example, instead of answering a question on how to rebuild a broken mirror, you'd have to actually rebuild it in the simulation. What a concept!


And that's my problem. I've been out of the "real IT world"—the day-to-day job of running a network—for far too long to pass a hands-on Windows Server 2003 test. That, of course, should have been the goal all along: Sift out those with real Windows skills from those who can read books and pass tests, or worse, those who can memorize information from braindumps and pass tests.

I was a book reader. I got my first MCSE (Windows NT) in 1999, during the height of the Microsoft certification frenzy. I went to a Microsoft Certified Technical Education Center near Baltimore, with visions of dollar signs dancing in my head. After all, listening to the radio commercials and reading the newspaper ads in those days, you were convinced that if you passed the seven tests necessary and became a hallowed MCSE, IBM would be knocking on your door the next day, begging you to take a six-figure salary to be a systems administrator. So I plunked down the MasterCard and started on my IT journey.

Skip forward six months. I've passed my last exam (IIS), and get the paper and pin from Microsoft. I'm a systems engineer at last. The only problem was that I didn't know squat.

Sure, I did the simulations in the classroom; I read the books; I took copious notes; I even bought extra books on the topics and read those. But like a growing number of MCSEs, I'd be at a loss to apply any of what I'd learned to an actual running, non-pristine network. I was the very definition of the "paper MCSE": I had the certificate, but couldn't architect a real network if my life depended on it.

That isn't to say the time and money was completely wasted. In fact, having the title did land me my first job in IT, as an NT application specialist at a large media company. Not quite an IBM sysadmin, and a pay rate just a hair under six figures (starting salary: $30,000), but I didn't complain. I was finally in IT, doing what real IT people do.

The point, though, is that I should never have been able to get a high-level certification like the MCSE without having worked in the field. Nor should any of the other thousands who got their certs the same way. The glut of paper MCSEs that flooded the job market severely hurt the prestige of the title, and Microsoft's own training reputation took a big hit as well. In fact, having the MCSE eventually became a negative, since IT-savvy HR departments were immediately suspicious of the credential, knowing that its holders didn't need experience to get it.

Contrast that with the holy grail of IT certs, the Cisco Certified Internetworking Expert, or CCIE. In those days, you did have guaranteed employment if you obtained that title, and a six-figure salary was likely to come with it. Why? Because you couldn't get it without truly being an expert—and even lots of experts had to take that test multiple times. The CCIE is the ultimate hands-on lab practical, and employers know it; its reputation is gold.

Until recently, the MCSE's reputation was more fool's gold, but that's about to change. Although the new tests won't be as demanding as the CCIE or Red Hat exams, they'll be an order of magnitude more difficult than previous tests, for both the MCSE and MCSA. Now you'll have to get the experience before getting the credential, the way it should be. It's my prediction that the bell has tolled for the paper MCSE, and good riddance.

What does this mean for you? If you don't have Windows Server 2003 certification because you think it's worthless, it's time to take a second look; word will get out that it has real-world value. Heck, even if you do have a Windows 2003 MCSE or MCSA, you should seriously reconsider taking the tests again. That way, if in the future you're looking for work, you can point out that you have a certification that means something.

About the Author

Keith Ward is Editor in Chief of Virtualization Review magazine.

Reader Comments:

Thu, Aug 13, 2009 wali muhammd khan pakistan

i wants notes of mcse2004

Sun, Apr 5, 2009 Narvesh Jaunky Mauritius

It will be an advantage tio me as i love simuluation, i never mind which paper i got whenever it ios simulation or mulitiple question. i love doing both...

Tue, Apr 22, 2008 Anonymous Anonymous

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Thu, Apr 26, 2007 Anonymous Anonymous

I'm 15 years in on my career, and I don't even bother keeping my certs current anymore. Not that I'm some super-tech who knows everything (far from it); I just know enough and do enough to convince the HR folk that I can do the job they are hiring me for.

Sat, Mar 17, 2007 Evert Lambert The Netherlands

Good article.
I'am glad it worked out well with you Keith ! However i'am sorry to say even the much stricter new Mcse certification does not guarantee success in the industry. I agree certification is good but should be kept in perspective...

Thu, Feb 15, 2007 Anonymous Anonymous

i am from South Africa and my idea of MCSE is not good. you pay all the money to just work for crap salaries. you get crap from users that think they know IT. you work for bug companies and they make the money and you do all the work.

Tue, Oct 24, 2006 Anonymous Anonymous

The whole cert. thing is a piece of junk paper, most of this companies a trying to make profit out of the desperate job seekers. Some employees within the companies don't even have any cert themselves. What i will advise is to get an advanced degree to be on top of your career.

Thu, Oct 19, 2006 Pamela Fairfield, CA

"Planned obsolescence." Had I known in 99 when I first obtained my paper MCSE on NT 4.0, I would have just done the training and skipped the tests. It was the training that helped me get a job. It was my integrity that kept me from hyping my cert to obtain a job that would actually feed my family. Instead, I took a job at a call center, continued to live off my savings and forgot more about NT 4.0 than I remembered. I continued to work with and learn MS products and eventually found a job that feeds my family. But that planned obsolesence for a cert keeps me from upgrading. This year it's Windows 2003. That will be obsolete when the next server product hits the market - and another cert to stay "current." What if I just stay current in my knowledge and stop getting the cert?

Sat, Jun 24, 2006 nuwan srilanka

hi

Thu, May 4, 2006 Stephen DEAN Australia

Very pertinent article

Mon, Apr 10, 2006 Areef Rakhangi Qatar

I started studying MCSE in 2000 as i realised that this is the way forward having no degree in IT but being a pro at programming and good at networking. For me i never had the money to pay microsoft their exam fees. Infact my wife paid my exam fees when i actually wanted to write the exam. Nevertheless i feel you never seem content while studying because there is so much more to study. People who have fooled microsoft by passing exams by mugging are all realising what they are but nevertheless they have money in their pocket because they got the jobs because of their MCSE's. Real tech beleive me can never be just microsoft guys because they have to manage so many other technologies and also there are so many other issues to deal with. I wouldnot want to waste my money now on microsoft being an mcse on windows 2000. For taking an mcse 2003 my official designation will not change and so i will stay put with what i have. Taking other certifications will be more benificial financially and otherwise. Wake up microsoft. I donot like to even hang my certificates on the wall.

Fri, Apr 7, 2006 CharlieJ NC

If you're looking for classroom training to EARN a real MCSA/MCSE, don't waste your time or money with New Horizons. They teach extremely basic concepts -- leaving you inadequately prepared to take the Microsoft exams. I'm really starting to wonder if the entire Microsoft certification industry isn't a scam -- from the so-called education to Redmond.

Fri, Apr 7, 2006 Anonymous Myrtle Beach, SC

Certifications don't mean squat -- on their won. EXPERIENCE is king. Anyone can study a book or brain dump and take a test. BUT, experience is where the rubber meets the road. I'm MCP, working on MCSA/Security. The value folks like me (15 years in IT work) bring to the table is EXPERIENCE. I don't always do things "the Microsoft way", but I get them done -- and that's where experience pays off.

Tue, Mar 21, 2006 Anonymous Anonymous

Tue, Jan 31, 2006 Anonymous Anonymous

i am paper

Sun, Jan 8, 2006 riyasudeen dubai

hai i want mcse 2003 paper detiles

Tue, Jan 3, 2006 Momolu Dukuly State of New Jersey

This should strengthen those diluted MCSE we have out there, that is, if they have the ability to stomach another test.

Mon, Dec 12, 2005 Viper CHI

Retake the exams. LOL! Also there are only like 2 of the exams ready using simulation that I know of. What about Microsoft Certified Architect. Now there is a really funny one. Microsoft is claiming it is on the level of a PhD. ROFL!!! It sounds like a scam to get 10,000 dollars

Wed, Nov 16, 2005 Anonymous Maryland

Thanks Pete you hit the nail on the head when you said "The certification treadmill is a carrot and stick approach to revenue enhancement (for Microsoft, not for you), complete with planned obsolescence. " what a Joke I worked hard at getting my credetials and the money to pay for them. In the end I got to breakeven if I was lucky. I still Love Microsoft but shame on them for trading the value of my hard earned cert for the gobs of cash they made de-valueing mine.
Cheers to you for saying it like it is!

Mon, Oct 24, 2005 Daniel Lockhart Tampa Florida

I hear the complaints all the time. As a Senior Consultant with CBT Direct, and one who stresses the importance of getting the best training available. I get upset that so many IT prospects want to just read a book because they currently have a little bit of networking already.

Wed, Sep 7, 2005 Darby Weaver Orlando

Many people hate the term paper MCSE's... Imagine if the histeria could actually affect your workplace. Imagine that a non-MCSE could bash MS and MS Products, then land a job as an Enterprise SysAdmin. Imagine that!
Well in my world, I watch it every day. I've progressed to the NetAdmin and am constantly having to help a SysAdmin with no certs and no idea how to run a network. Most paper tigers can change and IP Address, right? So I find myself re-writing the DHCP Scopes, DNS Zones, and configuring WINS to actually replicate successfully and addressing any issues found in between. Now I am a veteran MCSE and am actually looking forward to the board certified Microsoft Certified Architect Program. I think it will make a nice capstone after I have completed my CCIE this December or later if I have to re-take (many do). For those naysayers out their, instead of spending time complaining, spend time training. I do and I also never want for a job. I do not condone sending our jobs overseas. I seriously question the tenets of security when people send their entire company databases overseas, etc. But I'm getting off of topic. I am nearly a triple MCSE (an old MCSE plus I) from back in the day and an MCT now as well. I purchased my season pass (10 vouchers) and will consider it refreshing to try my skill and see where I stand on the newer more job-focused exams. I think we should find this refreshing at this point. Good Luck everyone and I hope this new format works for you.

Fri, Sep 2, 2005 UsmanHaider Pakistan

ya its good .......without hands on practise ...........MCSEs Papers are death.. :)

Mon, Aug 29, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

its boring

Thu, Jul 28, 2005 JW Orlando

The continued loss of our jobs in our field has led to an erosion of salaries. The erosion of salaries in IT leads to people leaving the field or taking lesser pay as I have had to do. It stinks, as I too, am considering leaving IT after 20 years and five hard earned certs. The only people left will be the paper MCSE's and they can have those jobs!

Thu, Jul 14, 2005 Floyd James Toronto, CA

The MCSE credential like any other Vendor certificaion is limited in scope.
Unfortunately this is not usually highlighhted or Recognized.

In the real world one must have fundamental knowledge of computer and network systems and how these are integrated in a network.

One must also be knowledgeable about 'third party' tools and solution that form part of the overall environment.

Someone serious about the industry should consider a compination of college studies (to form a base) as well as Industry certification to :

i) Develop specialty skills in a specific area (s.a. Windows Administration)

ii) Establish that you have a certain apreciation of that knowledge area.


The biggest problem with certifications like the MCSE (apart from the quality of the Tests and the Testing process - or even the overal strategy that drives the program) is that they are not comprahensive and do not cover the range of knowledge area required to do the Job of any IT professional.

As an example I considered myself a Knowledgeable SE (certified and actibve since 1995).

Howver, my MCSEs never covered much about hardware: I am just now really coming up to speed with

i) The intricacies of Enterprsie server hardware : eg. on the IBM x365s with RSA II etc.

ii) SAN achitecture with EMC , Hitachi ..

iii) Intricaies of AD migration with NetIQ DMA


iv) Automating Windows Admin task with

Scripting

v) Managing an integrated NT/2000/2003/ Exchange 5.5/2000 domain environment with NetIQ DRA

v) Managing Virtual Machine Environments with VMWare ESX/GSX

Yet in a large number of mid to large environments this is the kind of knowledge that an SE may be expected to have and master.


There needs to be a Body of Knowledge that is maintained by a governing body of the IT industry (i.e its practictioners via their associtions, ACM, IEEE computer society etc.)

This BOK should be kept up to date and a learning, testing and certification process be developed that is for the practice of a "Network Administor", "Network Architect" " IT Professional" or whatever appropriate moniker(s) may be deemed appropriate

I have been IT for 10 years and have also felt dissilusioned at tinmes about the profession as it exists.

While I am still a member of the community I will try to do my part to help develop the industry by at least joining one or 2 of the industry associations (I have joined the ACM and IEEE computer soc.)

Perhaps if more of us do this we can help to shape the IT industry we want ..
Its worth a thought


Sat, Jun 25, 2005 EN UK

quote: "I've been out of the "real IT world" ..... for far too long"

so now you want people who can remember every screen layout, option tab, etc to pass, regardless of if they understand the theory or not?

quote:
"Heck, even if you do have a Windows 2003 MCSE or MCSA, you should seriously reconsider taking the tests again. "

lucky i'm a native english speaker or i might have missed the sarcasam here, or wait, perhaps you are on commission?

Fri, Jun 17, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

I have worked in the IT field since the old 8088 CPU rolled-out. I got my MCSE in 1999 in NT 4.0. I thought that you HAD to have years of experience to even attempt the tests, but these Boot Camps having people get the cert in a week, most never having worked in IT and only getting the cert for the love of money (not the love of the Industry), made me not even want to tell people I was certified. Most certs are vendor-centric and not REAL world. Even though these exams are supposed to be 'hands-on' there will still be companies that come-out with simulation exams so that someone who has never worked on a server could still pass the exam in a 'virtual' environement. Theories and vitual networks are one thing, but REAL world experience is another. I would hire an employee with no cert and at least 2 years of experience before hiring a 2003 MCSE with less experience. The cert can help you IF you have the experience to back it up. You CANNOT put experience in a cert and expect it to be Highly recognized. It doesn't work that way.

Sat, Jun 11, 2005 PL tacoma wa

In 1998, I met a guy who got his MCSE in 6 weeks of self-study (and probably brain-dumps). I thought, 'if he can do it, I can.' I studied all summer and took the tests between Sept. and Dec., using the same methods. Once an MCSE, I immediately got a part-time job for a little company who had no IT help, and after 6 months, I was network admin of a different small-but-growing firm who didn't even know they needed IT help. In the last 6 years, I have become what wanted to be (but was not) when I earned the paper. I was paper MCSE for a short time, was a little embarrassed about it, due to how negative that became; looking back now, I don't consider it 'fake' or worthless. If you are interested in networking and managing an IT department, it's just a door opener. Now I'm looking at upgrading my MCSE to 2003, and I'm a little scared that preperation for exams is no longer easy, and the outcome is no longer predictable. But I am interested in doing it for exactly that reason - it's far more of a real measure of experience and knowledge than my last go-round. I'm managing several windows 2003 servers and exchange, and I love my job. My employer values me, and I was a good match for this career path. That was not true of a lot of paper MCSEs, and that's really the problem. People get retrained and sort of amble blindly to the MCSE as 'maybe I'll do this, the salaries look good.' People who wander into a field for which they're not well-matched in need that old advice - "know thyself."

Sun, Jun 5, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

All of my friends in India are doing the MCSE, there are many IT jobs in India for the MCSE.

Sun, Jun 5, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

So true, Win 2003 will become a valued cert.

Mon, May 30, 2005 George San Diego

Don't bother about doing MCSE. All tasks that an MCSE does, can be outsourced and companies know this. All MCSE jobs are either already outsourced or will be outsourced. Change your field. I myself have MCSE and CCNA but am planning to take 'tv and film production' courses now.

Wed, May 25, 2005 Jedi Master MCP Anonymous

Destroy the Paper MCSE we must!

Mon, May 23, 2005 Dan Anonymous

I hear so many opinions about the MCSE certification. One of my experences with an MCSE that I hired was that he was a great test taker but had no ability to problem solve. I value the MCSE cerification and the work that it requires to retain the MCSE title but I assign more value to the ability to look at network problems and solve issues is a far greater asset to an IT professional.

Fri, May 20, 2005 Chris Creedy Salem, Oregon

Complete and utter garbage. I wonder which Ballmer protoge buried the stick up this guys puppet rear end.

Thu, May 19, 2005 Guy Anonymous

After putting together a network for the navy, not just NT, but a multilayer security network with multiple versions of Unix sitting between and on each network, I earned my MCSE. After the crash, I tried getting an IT job to get out of the navy...Long story short, the BSCS seems to be the way for me to go. Perhaps working on Supercomputers is where I need to go. MCSE??? MCSD?? Most likely Solaris certs for me. MS don't seem to get it done with high performance computing.

Wed, May 18, 2005 Mallory TX

To stay optimistic you must have positive reinforcement. I believe in the Certification simply because I have had to work for EVERYTHING I've ever got. I have NEVER been handed anything, never went to college, and self taught myself everything. Once I pass the 2003 test I will have a self satisfaction of an even greater accomplishment. I enjoy my work and will continue to try and achieve the most that I can for ME! Not for my company, my ego, or even money. Yes, we all must earn a living and for some companies this certification may do the trick...but doesn't it really come down to what you can and can not do? Maybe we should educate the HR people? I will never forget an email I once got that asked me if I knew how to sychronize a PDA. I believe that just like with anything else...unless you got your hands in it, how can you possibly know how dirty it is?

Tue, May 17, 2005 Doug Arlington Va

Well written article but a little off-base. I too have a similar experience, but by the time I completed my MCSE while on the job, Windows 2000 had come out and they were offering certs on that. The point was to help me run my newfound network admin position, and it worked: after buying the books and passing the tests, I could do it right.
The 2nd point is that these were created in part to to help people get jobs. It's like a college degree. Don't expect to go work for a Bio research firm without a degree in bio. Don't expect to get an IT job without some IT certification. Simulation testing is definitely a better way to go about it. Good improvement there.

Mon, May 16, 2005 Brian Anonymous

Very real article!! Experience Counts in the real world.

Mon, May 16, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

MCSE is mostly obsolete by the time the exams are all put through the treadmill.
And one can only expect the pace of OS development to increase.
As for this article it seems to be more Good Marketing.

Ask someone in South Africa what an MCSE is and they have no clue. That's more my peeve with MS than anything else.

Mon, May 16, 2005 Johnathan Singh Toronto

I feel sorry for those poor poeple that toiled and spend the money they didn't have in order to gain knowledge. This is a typical example of the wise living of the fools or the rich getting richer. Microsoft is certainly the richer and knows how to keep it that way. When Windows 2005 comes out, I guess we will be rushing out to give more of our hard earned cash on certification. Good Luck to all, I will be dropping out of the race.

Mon, May 16, 2005 Anonymous Olympia, WA

Excellent information. With a CS Degree and 8 years experience and no certifications, I find employers still looking for the folks with certifications over a four year computing college degree. I've thought about obtaining certifications but with jobs going over sea's and my current employer cutting the IT payrolls again this year, I'm considering a new career.....

Sun, May 15, 2005 Craig Louisville

Enjoyed the read ..but I have to add a few missed points for both yourself and M$. The certs are minimal requirements (like a drivers lic). Many positions require these certs and to get your foot in the door of IT you must be amongst the few those that have the paper certs. Real learning does not begin until you are in the driver seat for several years. The issue in our world is our world...the MCSE is now a basic requirement for an IT person. It is the HR persons filter..." Do you have an MCSE?" Yes I do! Do you have a degree in IT....AHHHH What? So the conundrum is our field. I am glad I owned the paper before I got started...it has given me the open door I needed.

Sat, May 14, 2005 Anonymous Southern California

Simulations are good. Even the entry level CCNA uses simulations. There is nothing wrong with that as an addition to the test, however certifications (to some extent) aren't really necessary if you've got field experience. I mean, if you've been working with X (whether its cisco, microsoft, linux, whatever) for Y years and have many accomplishments under your belt, what does it matter if you get certified? It's kind of like a college degree, it's a requirement to get started. If you've got several years of success, why would you even care to go spend a grand or more on materials and tests to prove what your track record already has? For this reason, I see certs as aide for those who need them - entry level. Yes, I'm an MCSE 2k, MCSA 2k, MCP 2k and nt4, CCNA and A plus. But I don't really ever plan on getting certified in anything again...because I've got experience and no longer need it. There is ONE benifit to getting certified - you actually sit down and study the material - and learn it. Sure you can do it without getting certified, but how many of us actually put the time into one specific area of study? My point is though, people take certs for more than they are. They aren't the gold at the end of the rainbow, they're something to say, "Hey, this guy isn't a total moron, he's at least studied the material.", because seriously, anything can be learned on the job.

Sat, May 14, 2005 Charles Las Vegas

I've been working as a computer technicain since the late 80's. Thought it was time to upgrade my computer skills so I invested the time and money and went to school for my MCSA-MCSE W2K certification. Since I've completed my certification training I was only able to get minor positions in the IT field. Problem being, I did not have the experience, only the training to bring to the table. After several years of taking contract positions I finally realized this was not working out. As it turns out I decided to leave IT and go back to being a computer technician. I'm now making more than I did as an MS certified professional. It would have been nice to obtain an IT position but my obligations required that I quit taking low paying jobs in IT. My current job with the County will provide me a retirement. I look back at my attempt on getting into the IT field with regret because I fell prey to the MS certification hype. Never was able to re-coop the investment in time and money for the certification. Just to show you that certification will not always get you the good paying job. A lesson learned too late.

Sat, May 14, 2005 Robert Portland

Microsofts policy on retaking passed exams: "If you have passed an exam, you cannot take it again." Good thought though. That is how they kind of prevent braindumpers from just retaking over and over again.

Sat, May 14, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

Did you reealize that you are not allowed to retake a Microsoft test once you have passed iit. Read the MCSE Agreement !!!

Sat, May 14, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

I have been working as a network administrator since 1994 without an MCSE cert and have interviewed many job applicants from other countries with binders of certs to show and now skill to back it up.....shame on Microsoft and shame on the HR departments that base pay on what these paper jockies will accept.

Sat, May 14, 2005 Serge SWIZERLAND

OK about paper MCSE, but what about all those shools where you take the course and then every body passes the exam Like a big familly including the teacher to tell you the answers (It is good for the shool to have every body passe the exam). I think that is where the problem is (not only Microsoft exam).
I have been an MCSE since 97 (NT, 2000, 2003) and I do not think that with no practice or with boot camp training you can passe your MCSE today (unless they have some help during the exams).
For the one who realy study and test the products it is very frustating. I do not know why I should re-take the exams for my MCSE ! When I go to work my boss know that he can trust me to do the work.

Fri, May 13, 2005 anonymous San Jose, CA

All certs below CCIE and sub top-25 MBAs have one thing in common, you will not get your money back from investing in vouchers, books, and classes. But a MCSE is a nice extra to have on your resume despite the lousy ROI. So what do you do?

Try to get somebody else to pay for it. But nobody will invest in your cert? That tells you one of two things. Either your employer doesn't care about certs... or if you're unemployed, the IT industry doesn't need you and has already shipped your dream job to India or China.

The ROI in certs really sucks, and you can't do much about the return.... so concentrate on lowering your investment to zero. Use beta exams, discounted vouchers, free study groups, free study materials, borrowing books, self-study etc. If that's impossible with one cert, get another cert instead where your investment is closer to zero. Lots of certs require only one or two exams.
If none of the above is possible, it's best to spend your money on an exit strategy from IT rather than spend it on certs.

Fri, May 13, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

As a new entrant to IT where and how would someone acquire the skill required to pass an MSCE exams now? No experience means no employment. Then how do you get started? Can someone answer? Or Microsoft please?

Fri, May 13, 2005 Adrian Paris

I always compare certifications with, for example, pilot licences and, for me a certification is only a proof that means that the person who ownes it knows all the functions he need to flight with his plane...but this doesn't means he (or she) is an ace ! In 99 I was one of those "youngs pilots" even without licence !!! : I got my NT4 MCSE in 2001 and Windows2000 in 2002... so in 99 I had some difficults "landings" and I had some 450 persons who had to take their coffee in the same time, wainting for the system to comes up... !!! I still work as system engineer and I try to finish my windows2003 MCSE certification . Why ? Because I think that is the fastest way to accomodate with the new system features : even having a lot of experience in general, I think it will not be very wise to manage an Windows2003 Server like an Windows NT4Server...

Fri, May 13, 2005 Stuart Anonymous

I totally agree with the Paper MCSE's article. I am one of those with just a Paper MCSE and no job for it. The College recruiter who sold me on taking course said after I receive my MCSE, I can find a job anywhere boy that was totally wrong. The MCSE certificate didn't mean a thing. Companies were looking for people with experience rather than the certificate. If you're already in the field and/or your company is paying for you to take the course then that's fine but if you're paying for it yourself I wouldn't do it. If I had a chance I would've spent my money on getting a 4 year college degree. One last statement, none of the people in my class got employment with their certifications. I'm glad Microsoft is going this route but I think they should also inform colleges to stop sugar coating the MCSE certificate. It's a way for them to make more money.
Thank you very much.

Fri, May 13, 2005 Jan Philipp Pennsylvania

Keith, I think you have the wrong perspective on the MCSE! It is no job guarantee. It doesn't replace real-life experience. It is not an IT free-ride. What it, however, always did and still does is show commitment by an exsisting IT professional, or someone trying to break into the field, to invest time and money in learning about new technologies and staying up to date in the rapidly changing technology world. I have seen (and worked with) 'paper' MCSEs, as well as ignorant 'hands-on' (experienced in their own mind) people. However the majority of IT people I have worked with have been professionals committed to supporting customers (their users) and working hard at it. And when it comes right down to it MCSEs accross the board have more knowledge and more resources to solve real-world problems. Because the MCSE certification does not make them an expert on all the technologies, but rather introduces them to all the new possibilities the latest technology can deliver, so when a problem needs solved, they know about the potential options, and can then dig in and test then implement them. That's what the real value of the MCSE is.

Fri, May 13, 2005 Allysa North Carolina

Be carefull what you ask for...Many of my friends who are in the tech industry cried like babys (they are boys and i'm a girl) every time it was time to anti up on their certs. They always commented that it was a waste of time because it did not measure true skil, rather it was just another capitalistic method for someone else to get ahead. Now the boy's are crying that the tests are too hard. Well, be careful what you wish.

Fri, May 13, 2005 Dennis Canada

To acquire a university degree an individual must attend a recognized institution, submit a variety of assignments for evaluation, and pass several examinations. The certification process must be similar to achieve the recognition it needs in order to provide any benefit to its students. I believe the entire process must be restructure toward this goal. With the introduction of simulaton questions, Microsoft has taken a first step but I believe it is the wrong step. If the company truly wants its reputation to be reflected in its representatives, MCSEs, I believe it should make available through their channels a revised and enhanced curriculum that gives the students the skills they will need to service their products. I seriously believe that covering a topic in 5 days does not do the job. If Microsoft does not act, they will see the migration from their products grow larger as the incompetent support grows. This can only hurt the bottom line.

Fri, May 13, 2005 William S Glasgow (UK)

Experience or Qualifications, alas poor Yorick that is the question. As an experienced and qualified IT Professional/Consultant/Trainer (delete as appropriate) the whole certification scene annoyes the hell out of me. When hiring I don't want someone who knows it all, what I want is someone humble enough to admit any shortcoming but intelligent enough to address them, I wonder when they (all) will bring out an exam for that?

Thu, May 12, 2005 Sanjay Bangkok

The article written by Keith Ward is a good effort in showing the real story behind MCSE certifications. The beginning of Keith's write-up resembles to mine. Currently i am working on my CCNA certification and in near future i will also try to upgrade my certification to MCSE 2003.

Good Article!!

Thu, May 12, 2005 anon Anonymous

hey u get out of it what you put in. at least you know that the paper mcse has looked at the configuration screens before...not that he has a clue what he's looking at...but he spent $6,000 to $9000 and 6weeks to 10 mths to get that Cert. if ur dum enough to hire somone to work on your network and not have one of your strongest techs give the once over before you hire...then shame on you anyway.
maybe we just need another "tier"...
- keep something for "I want to join the club" folks who are wanting to start out in IT...low level stuff...pretty much get familiar with the OS.
- then a cert that actually tests your knowledge, let them design a test similar to the cisco exam... but not just ms apps, include stuff like veritas and symantec....i mean make it real world..how does the MS software play with vendor x y or z. how many of us work on a homogeneous network? how many of us will be working on a homogeneous network in 5 yrs?
i mean hey if i knew you had a badazz MIA certification (Microsoft In Action Cert), then i know you can actually do something.
there will always be newbies...that's just a fact. so lets find a way for the newbies to get good OS specific knowledge for a short time and $$$ investment...this allows companies to get the green newbies and train them as their evil hearts desire. not everyone wants a "seasoned pro", they can persnickity and ornrey and a royal pain in the keester. whereas the newbie, ok, you gotta kinda follow em around like puppy in the house...cause a poo will be in their path...but they're willing to learn everything and want to please...and they cost less...and as mentioned...a lot of this stuff has become so automated. i'm guilty of propogating, i do all i can to create procedures and scripts and such so that can delegate duties to those automated (and usually tedious) tasks. don't take away my newbie...then i'd have to make the user accounts and check the log files and swap the damn backup tapes....

Thu, May 12, 2005 sk Texas

My career followed the authors so close it's scary. I got my first real IT gig in 2000 and it was because of my paper MCSE-NT cert. Since then, screw em. They tried to take away my certification away just a year later, saying it was obsolete. On top of that, I was barely ready for what i walked into at that first job...big network...and it wasn't fresh from the M$ labs either. It was embarassing. I haven't taken another M$ test since. My company is talking to send me to get my MCSE-2k3 and if they do wonderful, i look forward to it. But on my home systems, I'm running Linux...

Thu, May 12, 2005 Charlie Memphis

I agree with the last comment. Fedex tech center here is like Dehli. I've got a paper MCSE working for me and he can't even install a network printer but it does provide good resume filler.

Thu, May 12, 2005 Anonymous UK

You've missed the point here. Getting an MCSE, is just the first step towards a career in IT. It is no proof of experience. After all, if you have just passed a driving test, you can't claim to be an experienced driver. The real skill learning starts after the driving test. The paper MCSE criticism is the same type of criticism which is levelled at people who take degrees and are then given better job opportunities than their unqualified peers.
The truth is, that if you have enough initiative to go out and get any qualification which you study and pay for yourself, then you should have enough initiative to make sure you get some practical classroom experience as well. There are good and bad people, qualified or unqualified, a good interviewer will sort this out.
One reason why many people only employ MCSE qualified people is that it is usually a good basis to start from. Why take on someone who may have been in IT for years but has never sought to prove he has ability by getting qualified?
Trying to make this certification more like CCIE will not work. There is a much bigger job market for Microsoft products. More people are needed hence lower standards. A Better proof of a persons ability is shown if they take a variety of different certifications or qualifications, not just Microsoft. As an Electronics Graduate and NT4 MCSE, with some years of IT experience and a proven track record in IT Projects, I certainly don't intend to spend my whole life studying just Microsoft - Neither do I believe it necessary to study so many extra Microsoft exams to upgrade my certification, just because microsoft wants to get more money. If I do study any 2003 exams I will limit it to those exams which are relevant to my career.

Thu, May 12, 2005 Frisbee Planet MCNGP

What's all this fuss I hear about the death Paper Mache' MCSE's? What's wrong with the children learning how to make new things in art class? And why are people trying to kill this lost art?

What's that? Oh... nevermind.

Fris "Emily Latella" Bee

Thu, May 12, 2005 Robert Sammis Brookly NY

Please go get checked and medicated
because writting with your head up your keyster is not a good position to be in
for us and the present state of the IT world

Thu, May 12, 2005 Robert Sammis Brookly NY

Please go get checked and medicated
because writting with your head up your keyster is not a good position to be in
for us and the present state of the IT world

Thu, May 12, 2005 Tony Chesano Key West Florida

Say That one Time SLOWLY...I Should
ReTake the MCSE Tests AGAIN Because now they are Legitimate TESTS
and to You my Brillant man You are hereby awarded The BUNG Hole of the Century award for your whistler blowing Journalism and revealing THE MCSE testing and certification program for what it really is a Pile of Bull

Thu, May 12, 2005 Shawn Louisville

Until two years ago I was a "paper MCSA". Like most people who seek education, I didn't do it to validate what I already knew, I did it because I wanted more. As a part of a career change, I started a technical training program and I studied for the MCSE (and other) exams. When I finished the program, I hadn't studied hard enough to be a "paper MCSE" but I was an MCSA. I think hiring managers differentiate between an experienced MCSE and a person who's proven basic technical aptitude and the ability to learn.
I hear you all arguing that having people without experience earn the MCSA/MCSE certifications diminishes the certification itself. Would a young person who just graduated from college be a "paper doctor" or a doctor who needs mentoring to gain experience.
The question isn't the level of experience, it's what you do to acquire the certification. If people without experience use braindumps or go through week long bootcamps, their cert is worthless. However, if you go through an real diploma program or an AA program where you spend a considerable amount of time learning the profession, you deserve to display your "paper MCSE" pen with the best of them.

Thu, May 12, 2005 Terry You Idiot

Terry, you idiot, have you not ever heard of VMWare or Virtual Server?

Thu, May 12, 2005 Jason Knight Texas

It is about time! Paper MCSE's have taken over the field and saturated it. I had experience when I began my quest to back what I already knew on 1998-1999. It was the holy grail until so many Paper's started jumping on the bandwagon, taking the jobs, lowering salaries, and decimating the title. As far as our jobs going overseas? That's help desk, not MCSE, read the title Microsoft Certified System Engineer. Help desk is several tiers lower than that one would hope. I've been an administrator since 1999, and there is most definitely a line between sys admin and helpdesk. Besides, the overseas help desks are failing miserably anyway, it shouldn't be long before that's a thing of the past. As far as the comment about the "catch 22", too bad!!! This helps define what an MCSE is and does, and should help salaries and credibility rise to what it once was. I'm still NT 4.0 MCSE and looking to upgrade to my 2003 status. I welcome the new tests, it should be a lot easier to pass vs. the old trick question tactic. Huge sigh of releif.

Thu, May 12, 2005 Keyboard Cowboy Mpls

I don't understand what all the hype is for the MCSE. Soon, people will see how worthless it is and HR departments will require an MCNGP cert for every admin. That is, of course, the only true measure of one's technical abilities.

Thu, May 12, 2005 CC SLO, CA

I too obtained a "paper" MCSE. After a 9 month class I passed my last test in Jan 2000 and landed a nice job for a small software comapany at $30,000/yr. This was after getting a BS in engineering. I see nothing wrong with that, and I say hogwash! It's true that having a paper diploma is not the same as having a paper diploma plus several years experience, but unless an applicant lies about that the fact someone made the effort and passed is worth something. When a doctor is issued a PHD it doesn't mean she is ready to perform a heart transplant... lighten up on that name calling attitude.

Thu, May 12, 2005 Rod Anonymous

Novell had simulations years ago. It didn't prevent there from being numerous "paper CNEs". One of the other respondents associated the new requirements with drivers licenses and having to take a driving test. Given the quality of driving I see daily the driving test accomplishes NOTHING. My experience with Novell simulations was the same. It may weed out a very few of the most clueless, but the notion that this means the end of the "paper MCSE" is a pipe dream. Dream on.

Thu, May 12, 2005 mike dallas

IT certifications are just not worth the money anymore, why pay for an MCSE so you can pull down $13.50 an hour, you would do better spending the money on learning how to build websites. I myself have the MCSE plus Internet in NT 4.0, OCP 8 DBA, CCNA, CNE in 3.12 and an A plus.... what a waste of time, so my job could be outsourced to somebody in India or Indonesia. IT people better wake up and get a job where they cannot be outsourced. There is NO SUCH THING as loyalty in business anymore. The company CEO would sell your but out in a second so he could but another BMW. I now work installing new offices for Edward Jones, best job I ever had and I can't be outsourced to INdia.
but with all my experience, I do more cable pulling than computer work. Good Luck finding work in the IT field....

Thu, May 12, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

what are you, the pot or the kettle? "paper" is bad, but go ahead upgrade your "paper" ???

Thu, May 12, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

what are you, the pot or the kettle? "paper" is bad, but go ahead upgrade your "paper" ???

Thu, May 12, 2005 Skip Pittsburgh area

Whoops! Forgot to mention the lure of the almight paper - by the hundreds of CTEC's out here promising rags-to-riches if you get your certs...
And to the bazillions of formerly well-paid IT pros laid-off by C-level greed meisters now trying to meet their bills on unemployment - it is more than tempting.

It doesn't matter to the HR drone that you have decades of experience - ya don't have your MCSE!

Thu, May 12, 2005 anonymous San Francisco

No, it doesn't matter anymore, I had it with IT, Microsoft and its next set of tests, I am getting out of IT and it feels good, I am going back to school to get a Masters Degree, after I got my MCSE I still believed that it would do something for me, well it didn't.

Thu, May 12, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

Excellent, eh? So let's make the driving test so hard that no-one can pass it unless they have been terrorising the roads for six months, and medical exams so hard that only doctors that have been murdering people for a year or so can pass! Fools!
And How did you get into journalism, Kieth? Did you pass a certification that you could only pass if you were a already journalist for a year? Or did you know someone, perhaps?
Experience is not the issue, here. Experienced accountants still screw up your accounts. Experienced IT hands STILL screw up networks.
But year-for-year, certified IT hands will screw up less than uncertified, so
"paper" MCSE's should NOT be despised by I'm-alright-Jack jounalists for trying to pull themselves up by the bootstraps.
What matters is that motivated and able people should have a predictable path to an IT job, and the routine product of Microsoft training - on or off the job -should be a real-world capable candidate. It never was, still isn't, and suddenly raising the bar like this does nothing to help. It is the desperate act of a paranoid company with a vested interest in wrecking IT careers.
After ten-plus years real-world experience Microsoft are still screwing up networks, software and...certifications. I think only companies with twenty years real-world experience of certifications should be allowed to issue certifications. And they should have to be certified too!

Thu, May 12, 2005 Tom Atlanta

I've been hearing about "brain dump MCSE's" for years. Is there really such a thing? Can someone say "I passed the certs using nothing but brain dumps? I looked at them for 4.0 and a little bit for Win2K and found them useless. For one thing, there was no way I could memorize 200 questions and answers. Secondly, I soon discovered that about a third of the "answers" given were wrong. For me, any time spent on a brain dump was wasted time.

Thu, May 12, 2005 Sean Texas

I got my MCSE NT in 98 and have upgraded all except 2003 and debating on whether or not to do it again. I look at the MCSE as an insurance policy. If I ever lose my job then at least I can go out and say "hey" I'm up on the latest technology. I have continued to push myself to keep up with the changes, however small they may be. With Longhorn on the horizon and little changes from 2K to 2K3 the upgrade to 2K3 doesn't make much sense, other than to say I am current.
So many MCSE's or admins of any flavor had got out of the industry that if they tried to get back in, then this new format might keep them from re-entering the field. Sure large fortune 100 companies will outsource, (you don't think they actually care about employees do you? can you say Enron?) But for all the smaller corporations out there there will always be a need for someone to "touch the box". I am hedging my bets on Security. To me this is the one field that should not and can not be outsourced, who are you going to trust.

Finally, I have decided to follow a new path to MCSD.NET I realize that lots of those skills are going overseas, but you have to be an entreprenure find a niche, and ride that wave.

Thu, May 12, 2005 Ronnie Jackson Tyler, TX

Dear Bos,
You guys act like all MCSE's were paper. Just an FYI, I worked with windows Server 3.51 and 4.0 for a year and a half before ever taking the exams. You were only a paper MCSE if you approached the cert from that point of view. Some of us knew our stuff no matter how hard or easy the exams. Bottom line, "You only get out of an endeavor what you put into it!"

Thu, May 12, 2005 John Michigan

I'm in a similar position to the author but have a different perspective. I'm an experienced architect of 20 years standing in a large services company, with experience in generations of technology and numerous platforms and OS's. I'm considered am expert in MS technologies, esp. Windows 2003 Server and AD, probably one of the top six or so in a company of 100,000 plus. I'm one of the people MCSAs and MCSEs come to when they have a problem they can't solve, and I frequently provide the answer. But I would also have a lot of trouble passing the new exams, simply because it's been a lot of years since I was actually the guy with his hands on the keyboard. I've occasionally had the luxury of a lab to play in and the time to use it, but not nearly often enough. So while I know the system architecture and capabilities intimately, and have lots of experience with troubleshooting real-world problems, I don't necessarily know what screen to do this from, or the exact syntax of that command. At the same time, I often work with customers who consider MCSE certification as the entry point, that anyone without that can't possibly know their stuff. I would in no way consider myself a "paper" MCSE, and yet I probably can't pass the next round of exams. But until MS gets in gear with a real "MC Architect" cert for people like me, the MCSE will continue to be important.

Thu, May 12, 2005 Jon Yiesla Indianapolis

I couldn't disagree more. I'm an MCSE (NT). I worked hard for that MCSE both in skills and in study. Why haven't I upgraded to a 2000 or 2003 MCSE? Precisely because of what the author says is happening. I look at it 180 degrees opposite of what he and MS think it should be. An MCSE should be the starting point not the ending point of your skill development. MS is making it so hard to pass the tests that only a person who is well versed in what MS thinks is important could do it. Which is the basic point of the article, that this should "mean" something. Well, to me the MCSE, or any certification, "means" I have more knowledge than the average person. I have taken the time to read or take a class or get my hands dirty. I have taken the time and effort and $$$ to improve my own personal knowlegebase. What it appears that MS wants this to "mean" is that you supposedly have all these super skills and if you are capable of passing the exams you must be a networking or Windows expert. Unfortunately the things they test you on may be of little value in the real world. The author talks about fixing a broken mirror; when was the last time you had to do that? And even if this knowledge is worth something it wouldn't happen very often and in the real world there are other environment-specific things that will enter into what someone does while fixing the problem. Even the tests that I took for NT asked questions about facets of Windows or servers or the like that I hadn't done at that time and in fact have never done. I've been a network administrator for almost 10 years. I manage over 30 servers and over 300 workstations. I have worked with every version of Windows from 98 to XP and all the server versions from NT 4.0 to 2003. I have worked with Proxy 2, ISA, and Exchange 5.5 and 2003. My day is filled with problems and troubleshooting and configuraton and research and installations. I know that I do a good job and that my company knows that I do a good job. And I would bet that almost everything that I have done and experienced and seen and that has added to my skillset and made me a better admin is not on any MS test.

Don't get me wrong, I think that certification is a good process. But it should be a test of basic knowledge not a marathon of incredibly difficult minutia. As I said, I've been a network admin for almost 10 years and I bet if I went in cold to take a MS MCSE exam, I wouldn't pass either. If I was hiring someone for an IT position an MCSE would mean something, but a persons experiences and knowledge would mean more. I would ask the author: when you took the boot camp did you learn anything? Did you increase your knowledge at all? I would bet that you did; and that should be sufficient to pass the tests.

One of the other responders brought up the point about drivers licenses; that you take a written and physical test. True, but in a MS world the written test would contain questions about rebuilding the engine and the physical test would include high-speed maneuvers on an interstate highway.

Thu, May 12, 2005 Redneck Indianapolis

I have been in the IT field for 4 years now and just graduated with an Associated Degree in CIS Networking. My batting average for MS cert test is 0 and 2. I failed the 95 and 98 exams because a lot of it delt with theory.

I am excited that the new MCSA track will have hands on. Because I am more of a hands on dude then a theory dude. I never expected my A and Network certs to give me any cash boost.

I use certs for 2 main reasons. The first to validate my knowledge and self training through a 3rd party source. and the second reason to convert them to college credit.

With expereince, certs and college degree in hand I should be near that mystical combination that will allow me to attain a high enough dexterirty level to improve my job advancement chances and do 10d6 damage to those who try to hold me back :-)

Well that's my 2 cents worth

Thu, May 12, 2005 Todd W

I earned my paper MCSE in 1999 just like you had the same smack in the face wake-up call once in the real IT world. For me, the MCSE was always about showing a prospective employer that I was willing to do whatever it would take to become qualified. I never believed mere book training would be enough (I just didn't fully realize just how inadequate the training really was).

Now with 5 years of systems engineering experience as a business consultant, the painful memories of those first few months in the field serve as a reminder to strive always to stay ahead of the curve technically, but also to keep in mind that success in this field requires one to be honest and trustworthy, responsible and maintain integrity - values not easily attained and certainly not from a classroom.

Thu, May 12, 2005 Howard Kentucky

This is also nothing new. I got my MCSE 2 years ago and had simulation questions on some of my exams. I also think that if you believe that you can't just study the material and learn enough to pass the exams then you are sadly mistaken. How do you think we experience IT people figure out how to do something for the first time, just go and hack on a production network until it works? No we go to the books, MS web site, and other sorces and read about how to do it. If we are luck to work for a company that has test equipment then we can test the solution in the lab, but most of us then just wade through it in production.

Thu, May 12, 2005 David Odom Oklahoma

I is about time. I finally quit hiring Hot Shot first year out college boys with a MCSE because iwas spending six months having to train them before they became productive employees.

Thu, May 12, 2005 John - MCSE Anonymous

From the beginning I never understood why Microsoft didn't require an individual seeking a certification to complete a Classroom based course, complete all labs, and pass a test at the end on the class to get a certification. I am a MCSE and learned a lot in classroom based labs. 7 classes with all work completed successfully, and 7 passed tests equals your MCSE. All labs, etc. completed correctly, with necessary skills demonstrated to a qualified instructor.

I worked for AT&T Paradyne for several years and their training involved classroom instruction, labs, and a test at the end of training. If you did not pass your class - your supervisor was notified - some guys didn't make it. We all worked hard to learn the required technical skills, and pass these courses.

Thu, May 12, 2005 Anonymous Boston

I was halfway to an MCSE when hired for my first IT job in '98 for the princely salary of 27K. I would not have been hired otherwise. It was a company doing outsourced tech (phone) support, and I learned a lot in my 2 years there. I now work for a Fortune 500 company, make 70K, and haven't done a thing about further certification. But I owe it all to my "paper MCSE."

Thu, May 12, 2005 Chris Cincinnati

I equate certifications with college diplomas--you need a piece of paper to convince someone to give you a shot! When I earned my MCSE, I didn't have the advantage of classes, books, braindumps, etc. I simply took the tests after working with the products...thankfully I had a good manager at the time that convinced me to stay away from the "easier" tests and make sure I took the TCPIP and Exchange tracks as it would better prepare me an a network engineer. The bad thing was that once I attained my certification, nothing necessarily changed job-wise. I could do the job with or without the piece of paper! The only difference between a paper MCSE and a paper graduate is that the graduate is paying off student loans! :) After earning my MCSE, my company refused to recognize it and I subsequently left for another job...there was as much meaning for the MCSE as a diploma...it got my foot in the door, but no one cared that you had it.

Thu, May 12, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

Sucks

Thu, May 12, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

I so tire of the MCSE debates. Here's what I can tell you, I've been in IT for 15 years. I obtained my MCSE in NT and 2000, not because it was required by my employer but for personal accomplishment. I now work with Windows 2003 and have no plans to pursue my MCSE there. Why? Because it won't do anything for me. It won't get me any more money at work, I've been there done that as far as personal accomplishment and going through either the tests or sims will not improve my knowledge base. I know what I know and have the skills that I do because I need them to do my job. Plain and simple. Obtaining my MCSE on 2003 would merely be an exercise in time used and money spent.

Thu, May 12, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

Damn, I'm tired of hearing about this. First, it's like the boy who cried wolf. Second, you act like this is a cure-all for weeding out all "pretenders". There will still be those that find their way around the test. Simulations can leak out and people can memorize those.

Bottom line is that if I'm hiring, I'm going to look for someone with skill, with knowledge and with experience. More importantly though (and you've left this completely out of your article), I'm going to look for someone with good logic skills, good troubleshooting skills. Someone who can find the answer when they don't know it. Someone who is a thinker, someone with a good work ethic, someone with pride in what they do, etc.

MCSE - MCSSchmee....rant on Keith

Thu, May 12, 2005 Kevin Glasgow

I feel that the point of this article may have been taken from the wrong viewpoint! A previous poster mentioned that "companies that won't hire anyone without an MCSE certification. This creates a real "catch 22" situation. You must have experience to pass the test, but you can't get experience without the certification. " This is soo true and in my opinion should be seen as an indictment of companies such as Microsoft et al. To work in this field you are almost forced to join the certification (and recertification) treadmill. What other industry (apart from medicine) has to undergo this continual degree of study and examination. I hold an MCSE in 2000 and 2003...at what point can I tell my employer (or future employer!) that I have had enough with exams and that my previous certifications should indicate the ability that I have?? Surely there comes a point for every one of us when you have to accept that you are no longer 18 and that you cannot furnish the same enthusiasm or ability to study becomes a reality. How long must we endure certification requirements?

Thu, May 12, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

This article in general is all bullshit. You have the catch-22 problem with certs and experience. In general the IT jobs in the US are declining. Big companies like GE have internal mandates to ship 70% or more of the IT jobs overseas. GE has pretty much accomplished this. The execution mechanism they used was to bring in H1b's for 2 years to train them and then to ship the jobs and the H1bs back to India for lower wages and lower costs. Other companies are copying this. Bill Gates lobbying for the elimination of H1B quotas is just so much more Bull from Bill. Keep wages down and let us train the staff for our centers in the US before we send them and the jobs to India or China.
Do not get certified it is a scam rip off to put more money in Bill's pockets. High paying IT jobs will not be available any more. Job growth will be in biotech and material sciences. think graduate school and PHD, but remember that while a PHD commands 100k in the US. They get less than 20K in India and China.
Maybe all the college graduates need to think about all becoming salesmen and retail merchants and forget about IT.

Thu, May 12, 2005 Tom Empson Louisville

Thank you Thank you Thank you.

By insisting on experience first you put all aspiring MSCE's back in the trick bag.

You revive the "Catch 22" of "Are you certified" No. Then no job till you get certified. "Are you experienced" No. Then no certification till you get experienced.
Can't get a job without certification.
Can't get experience without a job.
Can get certification without experience.

I can't thank you enough.

Thu, May 12, 2005 Malcolm England

The author has a point, but I feel that it does not apply to me.

I studied for the NT MCSE but never sat the exams - too little time as I was already working in IT. Then when my employer upgraded to Win2K Servers I studied for, sat and passed my MCSA. Now we have a Server 2003 machine I am studying for the upgrade exam.
I have always felt that the certifications are really worth having, providing you have job experience. So if I went for another job my CV highlights my "stuff" in this order.
Current Job
Previous experience.
"Soft" skills gained in my former career.
MS Certificates.

Thu, May 12, 2005 Jazzy Lebanon

The auther has a point. I once worked as a network admin for the biggest banks in Lebanon, and for my surprise, an office boy from the bank had his NT MCSE and, as the author said, did not know how to install Windows in the first place.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Anonymous Seattle, WA

I am a SR. Manager in a fortune 20 company and am responsible to hire IT personnel. This article addresses some good points but misses the mark on what most companies screen future employees for. When I see a person with and MCSE it only means one thing to me. A person may have the intellect to do the job but not necessarily the skills. I ask specific questions of a future employee on the job I am hiring for and judge from there. The bottom line is Microsoft Certifications have always been a joke in the Industry and will remain so until the corner on the shop book store stop selling books written to pass the tests. I don’t consider a certificate worth anything other than to tell me the person I am interviewing has the dedication, persistence and intelligence to pass a battery of tests.

Wed, May 11, 2005 John Thomas New York City

OK Let Me Get This straight You admit
Complete MCSE Testing and Training Program was completely invalid until The recent implimentation of this simultion stuff...I was doing simulation stuff back when I passed IIS 4 to complete my MCSE...No brain dumps but I made sure I new NT 4.0 like the back of my hand....only to get rejected by every pencil neck IT manager I interviewed with....IF you Did it RIGHT you were fully capable to apply your knowledge if given the chance but the majority of the pencil NECK college BOYS FEAR the fact that I could fix anything mechanical,(Trade Journeyman) Had sucessfully graduated from 3 Technical schools,and KNEW How to Rock and roll,But Because I didn't have my four years of reading books and passing Tests and Paying $50,000.00 to the deans retirement account I was not qualified....So I started my OWN business and with Gross Sales projected at 8.5 Million in my 5 th year The college club Did ME a FAVOUR The American dream still Lives and People risk and lose thier Life everyday trying to come to the USA...If you don't like the heat stay out of the Kitchen

Wed, May 11, 2005 Yousuf Pakisatan

yes you are right!!!, alot of people just read dumps and pass the exam without knowing what is happening behind the mirror. the simulations and real word scenarios will definately improve the overall value and performance of MCSE and MCSA.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Skip Pittsburgh area

Agree and disagree. Yes, the test-wizards can get their paper certs and dilute the value for the "real MCSEs" out there, but for the rest of us who have tons of varied IT experience - but no paper - we are SOL trying to find work that requires the paper. So - paper we must!

Wed, May 11, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

Wed, May 11, 2005 Mildrhet Lima Peru

Es verdad lo que dicen uno no puede conseguir experiencia sin la certificacion, yo soy mcp 2000 y gracias a esta certificacion consegui trabajo, ahora estoy pensando culminar los examenes de msce 2000 y luego hacer el upgrade o empezar de nuevo el mcse2003 que me recomiendan

Wed, May 11, 2005 biggun Ontario

I took an MCSE course at one of the local colleges 4 years ago and now have over 3 years experience behind me with a recent promotion up from help desk. Since I had to take a personal loan to the tune of 12g's there was no way I wasn't going to get certified and I busted my but to do so. I also knew that getting the cert would be key in getting me into the tech field and without it I was wasting 12 grand. I think people should take the courses and if you take the courses you may as well get the cert because down the road it may come down to you and a co-worker or someone else applying for the same job and the cert & training could be the deciding factor. I know having that piece of paper has made a difference in my life.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Kevin Anonymous

The problem with any certification is that it is only good until the next version of software is released. I got my "paper MCSE" in 99. A couple of years later MS wanted to decertify the NT 4.0 MCSEs in order to push the Win2K MCSE. I decided to persue a bachelors degree which no one can take away from me.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Kurt Hudson Tempe, AZ

This article lacks depth and research. You haven't taken a simulation test yet. Furthermore, you haven't read any of the newsgroups to learn that the simulations don't work right. That is NOT a good thing. If you can work the simulations on the exam, it doesn't prove anything because they don't work like the real operating system. Hence, you are proving anything.

I would also like to add that I train lots of system administrators that don't seem to know very many of the things that Microsoft wants them to know. As a matter of fact, I end up teaching them how to do lots of stuff that they will never again do in life (software RAID, for example) just so they can pass their exams.

You are nothing more than a Microsoft Certification cheerleader with this article. You clearly don't know very much about certification and admittedly you don't know much about how to do things in the operating system. So, I ask, how can you be telling us that this new crappy testing method is good? It sucks! They should be using Virutal PCs or real hands-on labs. These simulations are a sorry excuse for hands-on labs.

Kurt Hudson
MCSE 2003, 2000, NT 4.0, 3.51, A+, N+, MCT, CTT+
Trainer, Consultant, and Author

Wed, May 11, 2005 Jim Johnson Atlanta

Nice article. I have long resisted the urge to "get certified". I have held positions from IT Manager, Director, Systems Admin, Engineer, and Consultant. I do believe that most certs are worth much less than the paper, pin, and logo they are printed on. The only real path to make the MCSE mean something is to implement a practical or lab. I believe that it should be a multiple step process. I have a college degree, spent 6 years in the Marine Corps, have my MCSE/Messaging 2003, hold all of the Cisco Voice professional certs and still the hardest thing I did was complete my CCIE. I also believe that it is one of the most important and valuable things that I have accomplished in my professional career. It did open some doors for me as well as make me a better "network janitor". (I hate titles as much as certs)... I have heard that they are making the tests more difficult with each version from Microsoft. However, they really should implement and require a separate lab. It has worked wonders for Cisco. Redhat has followed as well. Maybe it is time to retire all of the "paper certs". But, only time will tell.

Wed, May 11, 2005 George Wilson

The problem I see is college graduates graduates have no real experience but get hired in place of an MCSE because of the degree. How often do you really set up a RIS, DNS or Active Directory server ? sometimes even as an MCSE its NEVER but you understand how. I would prefer someone paper or not who understood a system worked than someone with an
IT college degree which is more about money than hands-on. And remember they don't have to re-certify every new OS release.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

too bad people forget the whole Novell paper CNE in the 90's, as if it would not ever happen to Microsoft, it happened the first day of the MCSE debue. And yes, this field is dead, it is considered just another custodial job. outsourcing I.T. is in and I.T. jobs in the technology world is out, everything is plug and play, hardware comes redundant and modular F.R.U's field replacement Units and to fix any problems they are self explanetory or you look it up on the net. the light says change me, routers are plug and play,
as long as the engineer flashed the card with the correct info, the tech just turns it on. the phone carrier test to the Dmark, the installer test from the dmark to the package. Servers are remotely administered, when the a failure light goes on for one of the 3 power supplies, you open a ticket, and they mail a new power supply just pop it out and plug the new one in no downing anything, no rocket science there. Most infrastructures are already built,they are designed by a small group of people, and they make a standard image, any problem, back it up, and blow it away, re-image with the standard build, answer a few questions done
no need for a six figure person there
maybe 11 bucks a hour, atleast that is what the executives think, since they see their kids playing with computers, they look at us like an expense that can be managed. of course until they have a problem, then they will give us 12 bucks an hour. i think that the bulk of the money to be made is in consulting, no need for any cert there, just get the job done, right and fast

Wed, May 11, 2005 George Wilson

The problem I see is college graduates graduates have no real experience but get hired in place of an MCSE because of the degree. How often do you really set up a RIS, DNS or Active Directory server ? sometimes even as an MCSE its NEVER but you understand how. I would prefer someone paper or not who understood a system worked than someone with an
IT college degree which is more about money than hands-on. And remember they don't have to re-certify every new OS release.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Bill O'Sullivan Springfield, IL

If the simulations are here, I hope we are not breaking and recreating mirrors with Windows, because most of us use third party software for RAID and backup. We should be tested only on substantive material we really use, not all the information we could use. I have three MCSE's and I believe hand's-on is the best learning technique for me, but there was a time when that "paper" was the only reason I received my first truly IT job, and I learned more and more and eventually moved on. There is a place for every level of experience, and I hope all of us keep that in mind.

Semper Fi!

Wed, May 11, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

Great article. But why not apply an ISO 9000 certification to Microsoft software? Follow that by applying the Malcolm Baldridge stanard to the MCSE. Now we are talking real teeth into a certification that packs real punch.

Wed, May 11, 2005 employed Washington DC

It is sad to hear all of the whining about this cert. When have you EVER taken a test that was "real world" - IT or otherwise? Give me a friggin break. I am an engineer, a hiring manager, and an MCSE. My employer paid for all of my certs, so I would have to be a complete idiot to not go and get them. I have the experience and I know that. Could I live with myself if I missed out on a gig because I didn't have some letters that the tool signing the check was looking for? Give me a break people...yes, jobs are going to India and China, but there will always be jobs here for COMPETENT engineers - how the heck is an Indian gonna design and install a new network from several thousand miles away? How about rebuilding that bluescreened SQL box with payroll data on it at 3AM? Call it what you want and think whatever you want about the cert - the fact is, as long as there are people who decide your financial future who MIGHT look for it, you would be an idiot not to get it.

Wed, May 11, 2005 simplicity San Jose

I agree with others that this is an income generator for Microsoft, and that must always be remembered. They generate it from the training, testing, and at the end of the day implmentation. Testing without experience gets you in the door, with experience adds to your knowledge. If you notice each interation from Micorsoft is "This one will get rid of the paper MCSE's", and with each iteration msft make money.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Leon Dallas TX

Realize, no matter how we spin it, certification is ultimately just an entry point. It can only test one product and no one product works without all the other components or works in a vacuum. Those who have a proven track record are the ones who get hired. Then we take those just starting out, with only certifications to speak for them, under our wings and teach them what no test can, how computers are used in business, in the various verticals, with real world experience that includes all those other pesky applications and users that aren’t included in a test(s). Getting an OS to work, getting the network to pass packets, it’s all just the first step in delivering the applications or services we are actually paid to deliver.
I also want to comment about the CCIE - I disagree that it is actually a higher standard. Sure, it’s tougher (and if that’s all you are saying then that’s that) but I've seen paper CCIE's too. In those cases (and I suspect this will happen with the hands on MSCE test too) they merely "puppet" what needs to be done in the lab. After all, there are only so many things that can be repeatedly and uniformly simulated. What the CCIE program does differently is it creates a choke point. It ultimately limits those who can get through if for no other reason then access to the tests due to cost/time/effort. If you look around, those with real experience are in the same point in their careers as those who see "paper MSCEs". As for Linux, why? An open and free OS, with expensive and proprietary (Red Hat) tests? That must drive the long time Linux administrators nuts.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Anonymous Hornell,NY

It's about time, now if they can only do something about retesting all of the paper mcse's out there it would go a long way to get recognition for the cert. Look at Cisco, ccie's has to retest every two years to keep their cert active.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

I have spent many $$$ on getting my MCSE cert and too this day still havent gotten past MCP. Took the exam and passed. As with the rest i can honestly say that the training i received wasent worth squat. Waisted money. I feel i should be able to do the job and not just say i passed a test.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

Each time I read the same content from this author. I think your expectations are very high to assume you should be qualified to run any network after completing the exams. The exams should only give some the basic knowledge to begin your quest for experience. What you were expecting might be accomplished with magic not exams or labs. Another item what engineer would even consider certification having not built the networks in his personal lab and studied the material and questions. Many of the comments give no honor or respect to your own work. Right your MCSE is worthless.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Anonymous California

1999, I got my MCSE in SoCal and that gave me a $45,000 level III tech job at a large corporation (even though I have a BA, Psychology, some graduate business courses, and, yes, I'm female). I got the job by being a contract HW/SW installer in a crew with 11 other people and, at the end of the job, I was the only tech offered a new contract which ultimately led to the job. Of course, I had to do help desk one week out of three, and I used my customer service skills, sense of humor, and psych degree as much as my technical knowledge. BUT, I was the one who sat with all the managers and retrained the EEs on how to integrate their programs. If you use the MCSE as an entry point ("paper certification") like I did, you can still get to the 6-figure job after a couple of years. But then I'm not a true geek; I'm an entrepreneur. And I have gold-plated references to prove it.

Wed, May 11, 2005 anonymous Anonymous

I wonder how much money the author of
this article got from Microsoft. Come on,
no matter how you get your MCSE it is
still worthless these days. I would advise
new comers to change their career goals
to other fields that can land them a job after paying hard earned dollars on training. Recertifying for the experienced
sys admin? Buying some advanced books from Amazon and use an Evaluation software disk is a cheaper solution than paying M$$$$$ for training.
Don't tell me that an experienced sys admin can't jump right in to work with
Windows 2003 if they already know Windows 2000 because there are only a few more features in Win2003. Don't be fooled by this article.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Mike Kline

Comparing an MCSE to a CCIE is not really a fair fight. MCSE is more comparable to a CCNP and there are people that go to CCNP boot camps.

The MCSE is like anything else you get out what you put into it. Some people have paper college degrees in technology. Others go in and work hard and learn and know more.

Setting up a home test network is much easier now than in 1999 because of virtual PC or VM Ware. Much cheaper than multiple machines and it works just as well.

To all those that are getting outsourced that sucks so bad. We need to let Congress know. I would suggest to the young people to get out and join the military (active or reserves). Then get a security clearance (top secret is the best). The jobs that require clearances will not be outsourced.

Wed, May 11, 2005 wolf359st Cincinnati

Seems like everyone else is realizing the same thing...there is little future in this field if your looking to advance and make decent coinage. Looks like the head nerd of Microsoft wants to send your job to India (or import enough Indians)... because he'd rather train them than Americans for these jobs.

We've all seen it...they aren't smarter... and we have to train them to do our own jobs... I'd tell MS where to go ....

Wed, May 11, 2005 Anonymous Chicago

"I was the very definition of the "paper MCSE": I had the certificate, but couldn't architect a real network if my life depended on it."

As a minority member, I have found that althought I can design and assemble a network blindfolded, no one would let me do it before I passed a Microsoft test. You see, I don't "look like" I can design a network. I need the piece of paper that says I answer some questions about active directories and MSCHAP2 before I will be let in the door to even compete for a job designing and assembling networks.
Some of us have special handicaps and need those paper MCSE's to get in the door. It doesn't matter what else is on my resume, first they look at my address, then they look for the MS logos...

Wed, May 11, 2005 Tommy Gotti

We should file a class action suit to get our money back and join Novell and all the others that were done wrong by the
600 lb GORILLA...They sold us poop disquised as the American dream...but now its the Indian,Chinese and the rests of the worlds reality...Its the same POOP with a different cover...and retaking the TESTS will solve all the negative associations WHAAAAAAT, Boy if any body for one secound thought that was True Then you also believe in Fairy Tale I just can't believe you actually suggested WE RETAKE THE TESTS BECAUSE THEY PROVE IT...PROVE WHAT THAT WE are TWICE as stupid,you would have better luck in VEGAS with a 2 buck hooker !!!!!

Wed, May 11, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

I disagree that this is the death of Paper MCSEs. All MCSEs are now "Paper MCSEs" becaues the area is so broad that no one will have the ability to experience and master everything before the next operating system comes out.

Wed, May 11, 2005 M Texas

This is rediculous! Does anyone really believe that adding "simulations" to the exam will crack down on paper MCSE's? Come on guys, there will be a book with a similar "simulator" showing you how everything is done within 3 months! Microsoft isn't really so stupid that it thinks it will fix the problem with this solution, they are just in need of another influx of cash and this is a quick way to do it.

Wed, May 11, 2005 John McGLinchey Sprinfield, PA

Keith, I was one of those boot camp instructors and remember talking to you about your boot camp experience. Overall it seemed to be a positive training experience that stressed learning and not just memorizing. I believe that the new tests will actually be easier for those that have even a little bit of experience while surely being harder for those that tried to pass from brain dumps and cheet sheets.
It is always important for an interviewer to realize that ANY certification can be obtained by learning "just enough" knowledge to pass the test. That is the problem with our "no child left behind" laws. These new tests will make it harder but not impossible to do the same. The best interview experience is one where you are giving a chance to show your stuff. I personally prefer to contract to hire situations that allow me to test drive new personell and not rely on any paper by itself. Nice article. Keep up the good work. See you at tech-ed?

Wed, May 11, 2005 Bob Arizona

As an employer, I no longer pay for employee (Microsoft) certifications. It will be a very long time, if ever before credibility returns. We mentor our employees and either they learn and become exceptionally competent, or out the door. Of the staff members who have their MCSE, none are truly competent in their electives because they don’t perform them on-going. What a waste of money. Of the 17 years we have been in business, I have never won or lost a deal because of certifications! The new exams won’t have much impact in the real IT world. For the most part, nobody except uninformed HR people care.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

In the company where I work most of the MCSE's are hired as contractors without any benefit, for $20 an hour. So it is not as lucrative as it used to be. I have been working in this field for last 10 years and I find that my practical experience in setting up the networks, is far more valuable than any knowledge an MCSE has. Some of them do not even have the basics or any practical experience. In a real world network, practical experience is more important. As you rightly pointed out, practical experience with MCSE certification is the right combination. But where will you get experience if the companies wont hire anyone without the certification. I would say, some of the companies are even foolish enough, not to consider hiring a person, with practical experience. This is because of the hype, Microsoft has generated, about the MCSE certification.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Chuck Sacramento

The article is a bit one-sided. I earned my MCSE NT 4.0 certification while actually working in the field. I always felt it was the 'icing on the cake' to go along with my experience. I have worked in small to global heterogeneous networks and the things I learned while getting my certs have helped me actually do stuff. Right now I am migrating to MCSD and I expect to follow the same path: learning and doing followed by certification.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

Those whacky Redmond types and this author, a boot licker, discovered paper MCSEs about the same time as Al Gore invented the Internet. Microsoft and Al get richer, we poorer and the jobs go to India, where MS charges less and allows more cheating on the exams. Anyone who takes them would be smarter certifying in buggy whip technology.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

Well, I must put my hand up to being a paper MCSD. When I got the cert, I thought I was a god that walked on earth! Five years of hacking out real world applications later, I'm beginning to think that now might be a good time to put in another chunk of study and upgrade my MCSD to .NET and where my stripes with pride.
Sure I was a 'fake', but it gave me the way in and the confidence to have a go. I'm glad I did it.

Wed, May 11, 2005 tom atlanta

The whining and bellyaching about paper MCSE's is just as tiresome and self-serving as it ever was. Yes, there are MCSE who lack experience and make novice mistakes. There are also a hellava lot of untrained, seat of the pants, years of experience sys admins who couldn't find a GPO or calculate a subnet with both hands in broad daylight. Any cert is a piece of paper. It becomes more valuable when combined with substantial relevant experience. The analogy with college degrees is correct. A newly-minted schoolteacher, truck driver, lawyer or doctor may well make bonehead mistakes but I don't want one who hasn't bothered to invest the time and energy to win the relevant piece of paper. The grousing about paper certs sounds like the grousing about, "Why should a degree mean that guy gets a payraise or promotion before me. I've got years of experience!"

Wed, May 11, 2005 Chris UK

It seems that the author and I have followed a similar path and timescale with the MCSE. I also qualified with NT4 but I was already in IT, though more of a hardware specific role. I have since moved more into 'proper' MS based network roles and have continue to keep my certification up to date, I passed the 70-240 to W2k and have just passed 70-292 & 70-296 to update again to W2k3. At present there is no evidence within the examinations that they are taking a different path. I took a boot camp that followed the MOC labs and included brain dumps for 'revision' - basically learn the questions to pass the exam. Even though I am current on the OS I still found it difficult to pass 292 but would agree that 296 is easier for real hands-on engineers. Whether this will eventually drive out paper MCSE remains to be seen but I do think Microsoft should re-introduce the free upgrade exam to all who have made the commitment to get certified on previous versions.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

Microsoft is moving in the right direction, but simulations? Get some real hardware in the testing room. Work on that. Start it up, install it, and configure it. Troubleshoot a broken server, or domain or network. Then the a cert will be more than pretty wallpaper.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Mike Philly

I think the sentiment is fine, but can't see how the simulations will hinder brain dumps.

Eg., Answer to Question 15:
1. Click here.
2. Click there.
3. Delete file called corrupted.edb.
4. Click somewhere else.
5. Click Import and navigate to....

and so on. What's hard about that? Might be a little harder to remember, but not hard enough to stop a dedicated wannabe Paper MCSE.

As to the cert itself, I think that Jeff and Chris have useful perspectives. If you get an MFA in writing, you are a paper writer. If you get a degree in Sales Management, you do not necessarily know how to sell anything or manage anyone. And so too with the ultra fab MBA, now being assiduously marketed to people with tech certs, perhaps to qualify them to manage offshoring deals.



Wed, May 11, 2005 Anonymous Long Beach, CA

They should integrate the certification into the teaching just as conventional degrees are done. Periodic quizes, midterms, and finals with a pass/fail rating for the whole thing. Or should they reduce a college degree to merely taking a few tests?

Wed, May 11, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

I got my mcse as an nT 4.0 admin. I had a fair amount of experience and the tests were not terribly difficult. I had thought that the certification would lead to higher pay as a network admin, but i was dead wrong on that. Employers can't tell a good admin from an idiot by using mcsE certification, I have run into too many folks who have the mcse who can't do the simplest subnetting, etc. This is an attempt by microsoft to make the certification mean something, but i suspect when 80% of the people taking the tests fail them, microsoft is going to be faced with real dilemna in that employers will complain about the high cost of MCSE personnel to run their networks......and then someone will figure out that the higher cost MCSE folks are demanding the same salaries as LINUX folks so why use MICROSOfT software....

Wed, May 11, 2005 BGC Seattle

ENOUGH of this "paper MCSE" whining! I, like the author, recieved my NT MCP in 1999 and finished all 6 (not 7 as stated) tests within a year to gain my MCSE. Some of the tests (workstation, server) I aced with no problems, however, my "experience" with IIS4 was non-existant..yet I studied and passed with a good score. I was a LAN administrator. The people who worked on the HTTP servers were a different group. But I was interested so I chose this elective as a "strech". Duh. HELLO, COPORATE AMERICA SPECIALIZES AND COMPARTMENTALIZES! No one can have hands-on with ALL of the systems for which you are tested. And, by the way, who in their right mind would let an inexperienced LAN Administrator control something like an IIS or SQL server BEFORE PROVING HE HAS SOME LEVEL OF PROFICIENCY? Those of us who hire WELL in IT know that certifications of any type merely indicate at least a pretty good level of comitment. The rest is up to the interview process. THAT is where you find out if the person has the skills you need. More importantly, we have hired "paper MCSEs" often because we liked their style and intelligence AND the certification showed interest, initiative and intent. With these traits we were often willing to partake in the care & feeding of infant admins.

If MS is really making the tests passable only by those with high-level experience well, what good is it? Think about it. If you were a SQL DBA already and getting paid for it, why take the test? What possible reason could there be? Has anyone out there taken a test, gone to their boss and asked for a raise because you proved you could do the job you were already doing? And if you did, did they laugh you out of the office?

We all got the certs to prove what we WANTED TO DO.

So, I say the test and certification process should be what they are--proof that significant study and retention has occured.

By the way, the reference to CCIE? I work in a fortune 500 company with over 170,000 employees. Our Network Engineers ALMOST TO A PERSON do not have this certification. Like I said, they already do the job, why should they take the test? The people here who persue the CCNA-CCIE track are the field technicians who are looking for career advancement.

-bgc

Wed, May 11, 2005 BOBJ Oregon

Sysadmin outsourced overseas? I see plenty of development, customer helpdesk, but sysadmin? I'm not seeing it.
In regards to Indian comments, any day now you'll be outsourcing to China. Your time will be shortlived.

Wed, May 11, 2005 JDS Minnesota

Braindumps, troytecs, etc all contributed to the mass of inexperienced MCSEs. The install base of Windows draws in MCSE candidates. Cisco's CCNA began to see the same result until they redesigned the CCNA cert process into two exams. Certification is good, but relevant experience on your resume outweighs anything including college education (at least if your a pure sysadmin).

Wed, May 11, 2005 singh india

You are right the old paper MCSE's are worth nothing and the new certifications are worth nothing. Don't waste your time with Microsoft certifications at all. In India we work for less money and get experience instead of worthless paper, wake up America.

Wed, May 11, 2005 STEVE UK

Like many others simply trying to progress their career, I self-financed in pursuit of this 'fools gold'. I feel totally cheated by Microsoft and wish they HAD prevented me from doing the cert without significant experience. I would be a few thousand pounds better off if they had. I wonder if Bill Gates would refund my money!!

Wed, May 11, 2005 Sue New Jersey

If they made the test as the real world works (the end result is what counts) then it might be OK. From other comments I have heard the test grades you by if you do the simulation exactly as Microsoft wants, not necessarily what works. Besides my MCSE I was going to get my MOUS certification-tests were simulation. I failed twice-not because I didn't achieve the end result-I did it too fast and didn't do it exactly as they wanted ( I checked how I did it and I was right). If these are the same they are a waste. Real world scenario is to get it done and shortcuts work.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Jeff Ford Ft. Collins, CO

I see the addition of the more difficult testing as being a little too little and a little too late. With the glut of paper MCSEs in the field now companies seem to use the MCSE as a baseline - a place to start just for hiring purposes. Now for those of us who've been on the edge of the field for years (we've taken care of our company's networks because no one else would and have good amounts of hard earned experience) and would like to get into the IT field for real, the bar just got put out of reach. I don't have the time to spend on the schooling and testing now required to make my experience count for something... To say that you need to have the experience before you can get the certification makes it almost an impossibility these days.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

For those of us that never got the almighty MCSE but instead of taking classes we have been in the trenches running networks for years, perhaps we can get an honorary MCSE based on real world experience?

Wed, May 11, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

OK, so what about the simulations? I keep hearing about points being deducted for mistaken clicks. So, is right-clicking on 'My Computer', selecting Properties better or worse than Control Panel, System? With Windows, you can always get places at least two different ways. It's not clear, test-wise, which is the "best" way. As always, we have to guess which is the Microsoft "best" way. I hope test-takers get some wiggleroom.

Wed, May 11, 2005 lukas usa

lol !!!!

Wed, May 11, 2005 Whit McClendon Greenville, SC

I agree with the author that practical testing is "A very good thing." However, ALL MCSE certs come on paper. They always have and they always will. Ever see one printed on marble?

It will always be possible to prep for a test without "real world" experience and a test will always be just that - a test. The Real Test of an IT professional is whether they can troubleshoot and recover when something Goes Wrong -- and the new Microsoft test doesn't quite account for that.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Anonymous Philadlephia,PA

My situation was similar to the authors.Even though I got an IT job soon after computer school and began gaining real world knowledge I never got to the level of "admin".The only positions I could get with such a lack of experience were as "support tech".Even after proving myself in that capacity for many years I didn't have the type of "higher ups" who were willing to share their knowledge and let me move into the admin role.They gaurded the admin role like a beautiful woman who you better not look at as much as try to learn anything about.When I asked about learning and doing more I got the speech about how valuable I was in my current role and that I should "just be patient'.Now here I am 5 years later unemployed and totally disenchanted with the world of IT.I have gained enough knowledge and experience to take care of my own home network and those of my friends and family so we don't have to pay ridiculous prices for repairs when our PC's malfunction but I am no longer seeking employment in the IT field.My MCSE (NT 4.0) and CNA (Novell 4.11) have been filed away in my scrapbook along with my high school diploma as they all are about on the same level as far as obtaining the six figure salary jobs in the not so glorious world of IT! Good luck to all who continue on the path.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Chris Munger Anonymous

The almost never-ending litany of complaints of "paper MCSEs" is simply amazing. Any certification, regardless of the vendor, technology, or field, is only as valuable as the methodology behind it. Anyone who read more into the MCSE certification than what a cursory review of the requirements would unveil is guilty of violating the classic "caveat emptor" admonition. It sounds akin to someone complaining that "I was told if I got a Bachelor's Degree, I'd make a lot more money than someone who didn't. I have a BSEE and don't know how to build a radio from parts and General Electric is not calling me up offering me jobs, so the degree is worthless!" I was never duped by the value of an MCSE, both as one who pursued and earned the certification, as well as someone who interviewed people for jobs who listed the certification on their resume. You can't be a valuable employee if you can only do but not think and you can't only think but be unable to do. The two go together, like a Bachelor's degree and real-world experience. However, I wouldn't eliminate the "paper" Bachelor's degree and I would never consider discounting a person's real-world experience just because they might not have a degree. So it is with IT certifications. Comparing the CCIE to the MCSE is comparing apples and oranges, and no one at Microsoft that I ever heard or read indicated the two were equivalent. An MCSE shows one thing, and it's a very valuable thing -- that you have the book knowledge of Microsoft technologies. If you couldn't pass a simple tech screen where I or my peers probed your real-world operations or engineering experience, then the MCSE on your resume wouldn't help a bit. And if you could only answer questions in a tech screen specifically related to what you've done, with no broader big-picture knowlege of the technology landscape, then your real-world experience wouldn't be enough to get hired either.

Wed, May 11, 2005 C woodfine UK

I have deployed a number of large scale Active Directory solutions. Yet I failed the 2003 admin upgrade exam. The exams are not real world. They don't have users or existing legacy systems. Successful deployments are 80 % dependent on experience and mangement of the deployment and NOT in whether you can remember the parameters for some command line utility for which more experienced professionals will script in any case! Get a grip! I don't have time for certs as I am to busy finding ways to get best value out of a product, which is seldom covered in any MCSE literature.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Jeff LaConte Saint Louis, MO

I don't totally disagree, but I was one who worked in and around the IT industry for many years, (5 to 6), in Help Desk and telecom before deciding to get my MCSE in 99 just before they offered the 2000 cert. So I decided to wait till the 2000 programs started coming out and choose not to enroll in a "bootcamp" but a 14 month course while working and studying very hard it's not like the test were a piece of cake, OK maybe the server and workstation were. Then it took me another 2 and a half years to get a job actually administering a network. I'll agree that there should be some simulation integrated into the test, but what I realized and what I have seen is I knew the Microsoft way in text terms inside and out and did many labs in a "pristine" network, but I still had to learn how it worked in the real world, which was sometimes hard but I know guys who are net admins and can make things work but without the trainning configure things in a way that only they can figure out and takes them twice as long to learn new features or things they haven't done before. My question would be how does someone get "real world" trainning in Active Directory without what some may call "paper MCSEs"?

Wed, May 11, 2005 Bryan J. Smith USA

The "simulations" are comparable to the CCNP, NOT the CCIE or RHCE. Don't make the mistake of even comparing even the new "simulation questions" like those on CCNP exams to to the CCIE or RHCE, which are actually and ENTIRELY LAB-based exams. BTW, has anyone seen the new 5-exam RHCA track ($800-a-pop for the up to 8 hour labs, EACH).

Wed, May 11, 2005 Tony Santa Clara Ca

Lip service, there will always be paper dolls who pay to go to boot camps. Microsoft’s tests are just as fruitless as the others in a pay to play world. The mentality of the industry is that a certified tech is better than the rest and until this mindset has changed don’t you think that test will continued to be made to pass, come on without thousands of MCSE's to promote Microsoft sales where will Redmond be. I have been on interviews where the moron interviewing me is reading right out of the MCSE for Dummies manual asking questions that would never enter a real world scenario. It’s the way it is baby and this is just another POS article. I did like the title.

Wed, May 11, 2005 David hodgson New York City

I think this is marvelous news. I am a much better administrator than I am a test taker. There are other skills that are not examined such as explaining to non technical people our problems and cancers and getting them to explain there needs better to us not to mention being able to mentor and be good student and learn from your subordinates.
Keep up the good work
Regards David

Wed, May 11, 2005 Kyle Anonymous

That's is what make the developer certification superior!

Wed, May 11, 2005 Steve Maryland

This is a great story, and accurate, and as for "What about the catch22" regarding needing the cert for the first job... Too bad - Maybe you wont get the MCSE qual job for a first job. That's why there are MCP and MCSA certs. MCSE is SUPPOSED to be a TOP LEVEL Microsoft test, not something any teenager can get by pirating a TroyTek PDF.

On the bright side, if you know what you're doing, it should raise the differentiation and therefore salary of any REAL MCSE..

Wed, May 11, 2005 M$ money Anonymous

You Sir, are the worst kind of Hypocrite. A self rightous one!

Wed, May 11, 2005 Anonymous Sioux City

Does it really matter anymore? With all of our jobs going to H1-B recipients (even Microsoft is joining the fray), why should I care anymore? I've been thinking of leaving the field anyway. Good luck to all of you.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Pete Hoffman New York

I cringe when someone uses the words "death" and "MCSE" in the same sentence. Maybe a more accurate title for this editorial would have been "Microsoft attempts to have MCSE credential gain credibility". The certification treadmill is a carrot and stick approach to revenue enhancement (for Microsoft, not for you), complete with planned obsolescence. Why wouldn't our jobs go overseas anyway? After all, we are training all the foreigners how to do this type of work - and cheaper, too.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

I don't necessarily agree. My circumstance was similar to the author and about the same time frame. The only difference was that I could set up a network... and did. I continued to teach myself and get more certifictations (total 5 MS certs). My MCSE has certainly helped open some doors but hasn't provided me a path to a higher income. I don't see a benefit of paying thousands in books, study materials and tests just for that piece of paper. I just see articles like these as Microsoft's way to hype the certification and dupe thousands of their hard earned money. I doubt that I've really recouped my initial investments in certification. I believe certification is good but should be kept in perspective.

Wed, May 11, 2005 J Minneapolis

Well that's nice but maybe a day late and a dollar short. Who's going to pay me money for the deflated value of my non-paper MCSE I worked hard for? Microsoft got nice and fat during the paper certification frenzy and now I'm supposed to feel satisfied because they made the test harder? The damage has already been done. I used to hang my framed certs on my wall with pride; that was a long time ago. Hooray, Microsoft is coming out with new exams, let's all pump more money into Microsoft. Microsoft should pay me to take their new exams.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Webster AR

I thought Microsoft wouldn't let you retake an exam once you had passed it? If that is true, then retaking an exam to say you took the ones with the similations is pointless.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Terry Pennsylvania

That's great Keith, but what about all those companies that won't hire anyone without an MCSE certification. This creates a real "catch 22" situation. You must have experience to pass the test, but you can't get experience without the certification.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Tim Barrett Anonymous

When you get your drivers license in the USA, you take a written test and then a physical test. It makes perfect sense to combine written and simulation testing methods on computer exams.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Fred Anonymous

I hope it's true. I've seen too many paper wonders really mess up a network.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

Please, I have heard this for every MCSE test that was out there. And still our jobs still go over seas.

Wed, May 11, 2005 Anonymous Anonymous

This is an excellent article. It puts perpective for a number of individuals in the same situation.

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